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Moe explains some of this in “My afternoon with Moe Norman”.
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+Aussie Mike Hi Mike,
If you have seen some of Moe’s other clinics he has done the ‘Hoping Golf’
section where he refers to the players that try to hit their shots with
lots of curvature, , the shots he hits describing the different ball flight
directions are extreme but he applies ‘extreme’ hand action and path
direction to get those ball flight shapes.
He has to move the club along the attack path and open/close the clubface
to the degree of severity he needs to get the appropriate rate of ball
curvature he is demonstrating, no one can create severe ball flight
direction shapes without adhering to the ‘laws’ of ball flight mechanics,
not even Moe.
The really good players only change the path direction and club face angles
and body alignment to get the curvature direction differences they want,
they dont go to any extremes of grip changes or excesses of body movement .
It always surprises the club player when they ask me to demonstrate how I
move the ball different directions and heights when I just from their
visual uptake perspective only make ‘minor’ changes to my body/stance
alignment and insignificant looking clubface alignment positioning, they
expect to see major structural changes and contortions of grip and body
Something that may be exaggerated somewhat is the ‘rate’ of clubface
release on shots like big slinging ‘hooks’ or snap type ‘cuts’ etc. which
require high rates of compressive spin to get the extreme rates of ball
Its like anything I guess …if you haven’t been shown how something is
‘actually’ done/achieved you have your ‘own’ perceptions of what you think
is the process, which is invariably not what actually takes place.
Many thanks JH for this video. Just saw ‘my afternoon with Moe Norman’ and
he never once implied that he closed or opened his stance , then swung as
normal but with back of left hand going towards target. Wonder why Todd
Graves was so specific about this in his book? If wrong , then quite
disappointing because I thought he spent a lot of time with Moe ironing out
all the mechanics , etc. Ah well !!! Golf instruction is all about
+P SMITH Hi Keith,
As I said in the video Moe wasn’t really interested in talking about shots
that aren’t straight because his mindset is so orientated to the ‘straight’
As well what I said in the video is that not Moe or anyone else can move
the golf ball with curvature without applying path and face mechanics, the
ball only moves a certain way because of applied spin differentials, and if
any human can get a golf ball to curve in a hooking/drawing/fading/slicing
direction without a path/face difference application I just need to know
how they do it.
I haven’t read Todd’s new book so I dont know specifically what he is
saying relative to how Moe got the ball to curve when he wanted it to.
I guess if you posed the question to Todd how you would get an Iron Byron
type robot to produce ball curvature from a straight line path attack on
the ball and a square clubface at impact it would be an interesting reply I
Todd of course spent a lot of time with Moe , clearly more than anyone I
know of and again clearly Moe would have told him things that he ‘thought’
did in his swing , now Moe may have absolutely ‘thought’ he did what Todd
is saying he told him he did, but it is inescapable that he couldn’t curve
the ball without path or face differential application, no matter how much
he ‘thought’ he didn’t do that., but Moe as I said in my video totally
agreed that to move the ball different ways you had to change path and face
I guess that’s where I am different to other coaches in that I just do not
accept anything that is not empirical evidence supportable, particularly
with regard to ball flight dynamics resultants.
I will accept anything and change my mind on something if it can be proven
that what I think is happening is not in actual fact, but the new evidence
has to be itself totally supportable by an empirical demonstrative example
of the challenging opinion.
There is just so much lack of understanding of general golf ball flight
absolutes , you hear it so often on PGA Tour broadcasts from supposed
learned golf coaches, what about Johnny Miller constantly referring to
putts with ‘overspin’ …there is no”spin’ of any kind applied to a ball
when putting…only ‘Roll’…spin is defined as a ‘Rapid or high rate
turning or whirling motion’…. how can any supposedly golf teaching guru
not understand elementary dynamic motions.
To say a putt has ‘overspin’ on occasions is to suggest it normally has
‘backspin’ in a normally struck putt..which clearly it doesn’t,…the putt
referred to as having ‘overspin’ is just a a ball roll that has less
‘frictional skid’ applied to it initially at impact , probably just hit
perfectly at the balls vertical circumference so as not drive it into the
ground and cause it to bounce and take on more friction which effects the
balls roll quality factor as evidenced in most putts hit.
The other thing that drives me nuts is the reference to a ‘Top Spin’ type
driver ball flight , again unless the ball is completely topped it cannot
exhibit topspin and create lift at the same time, the ball that is referred
to as a ‘Topspin’ type flight is merely a ball flight with ‘less’ backspin
The point of all of this rambling is that it is possible to make statements
that are totally believed by the maker of said statements because they just
dont understand the base mechanics/dynamics of the process in question,
which even Moe Norman is clearly a victim of, and as a result I believe
Todd Graves is as well, ‘IF’ that is what he is saying in his book that you
refer to is not being misconstrued by yourself in your interpretation,
which I would doubt based on what you quoted from the book.
You are absolutely correct in saying that ‘Golf Instruction is all about
Opinions’….the ‘opinions’ that ‘can’ be supported by empirical
evidence…and those that ‘cannot’……..
I think Todd Graves does a great job of keeping the Moe Norman swing alive
and his schools are very well run I am told , I haven’t seen Todd since
1995 /1996 so I dont know what he is like these days ..back when he was
just a Natural Golf golf guy he was an extremely pleasant individual and
exhibited a severe desire to understand Moe’s swing from what I term the
‘Atomic Particle’ level…so he has devoted his teaching life to Moe’s
methodology which is certainly to be commended,.
He is apparently I have heard starting up a Moe Norman/Graves Golf facility
here on the Gold Coast of Australia where I live, I will look forward to
seeing how it goes over here, there is a fairly big base of interest over
here so Todd could have a winner on his hands with the facility.
cheers JH Phew..that is a world record length post right there.
+1atomicgolf Its a great post JH 🙂
great vid as always.
YES. With impact taking a miniscule fraction of a second, it absolutely has
to be path and face (also shoulder angle) that makes the ball move
left/right/high/low. Rotation of the club face through impact is much less
relevant IMO. I might change my opinion tomorrow, but for now that is what
makes the most sense.
+Marc Gardiol Hi Marc,
I just think you dont need to be trying to apply ant ‘extra’ club face
rotation or holding off while making impact, just set all that up at
address and release the clubhead at the normal rate you do through impact.
I believe its just so much easier to set something in place at address than
to be trying to do it when the club is travelling fast into impact.
I absolutely agree 100%. Love your videos JH.
+Marc Gardiol Glad you are enjoying the vids.
JH, i like how you swung the club. As the same single plane swinger, could
you let us know your explaination of Bryson Dechambeau’s swing? one more
question, do you use bigger grip size in your clubs?
+Fadil Akbar Muarif I will do something on B C’;s swing, its very
interesting as are his club specs, I did use the bigger Natural Golf grips
when I first started with the Moe swing because I was selling the Natural
Golf clubs etc…but I dont use use bigger grips on my normal type/spec
clubs these days,mostly because I dont use a split grip , which Moe didn’t
either when he played all his tournament golf.
Hi JH – Went down the range and practiced both my Shawn Clement and Moe
Hybrid techniques. Strange thing is my short iron quality of strikes were
relatively the same in quality and accuracy , 4-6 irons were nearly all
pulls hooks (not nasty snap hooks ) with the Shawn C swing , but straighter
with some pushes using Moe Hybrid. My drives were a lot lower and
straighter (the odd slice) with Moe Hybrid and more consistent contact than
SC swing. But when I really strike the ball solid with SC swing its much
longer. Sort of torn about which swing action to really concentrate on ,
what would you suggest? Or should I just try and create my own swing from
scratch using the ‘common moves’ and drills advocated by Ralph Mann (in his
‘swing like a pro’ book)? Where he spent 17 years fitting probes on the
bodies of 100 PGA Tour players and then statistically finding all the
‘common moves’ while weeding out any exceptions/swing nuances by particular
individuals. A sample of 100 golfers is probably not large enough to
confirm the optimal moves but it does seem to be backed up with lots of
scientific data. If I did the latter, it would probably not look like SC or
Moe’s swing and may have some nuances of my own – that could be fun!
+P SMITH Hi Keith,
The ‘right’ swing for anyone is the one they can apply consistently well,
because everyone has a different body makeup and balance/flexibility
factors etc. .
What I have tried to do with all my students over the years is to just get
them to to find a way of swinging the club head where it reacts to
direction change in the downswing by ‘itself’….it doesn’t matter what
your swing style is or your body type capabilities as long as the club head
is a ‘free agent’ throughout the entire golf swing, you cannot ‘put’ the
club head into a position, it has to get there by unimpeded travel.
At the end of the day the club head has to be ‘swung’ into position at
every point in the golf swing, that is the real ‘secret’ of a repeating
swing for all players as far as I am concerned, clearly there is the basis
for a video explaining this ‘atomic particle’ of the Golf Swing..I will
call it ‘The ‘Swinging’ Hit..Not The ‘”Hitting Swing”……
I think if you adopt my ‘Swing The Clubhead’ approach you could build a
golf swing a bit quicker than 17 years..lol.
+1atomicgolf Cheers JH – I’ll persevere with the swinging hit.
I’ve been swinging moe norman swing for 14 years. You provide the best
inside information of Moe. Great work, keep it up =)
Glad the Moe stuff is a help to you, its just the way I saw his swing and
the way I interpreted the things he told me, and I dont think it hurts to
get different perspectives on his swing, we all have different ways of
+1atomicgolf And what he told you too! =)
Wish I had had the chance to meet him :/
I met him in a dream once though =)
It was an amazing experience to meet him and get some insight directly from
him on what he thought he did in his swing, clearly some of the things he
‘thought’ he did were just that..’thoughts’…when I queried him about some
of the things he said he did and after I explained that he clearly didn’t
do some of those things he just said although the things didn’t happen
thinking that they did gave him the results he wanted never the less.
Perceptions are great vehicles to get results , although your perceptions
may not be ‘actual’ in function/process they can still provide a result of
usability of significance, I myself of late have been feeling I am pausing
at the top of my backswing, I clearly am not but I am getting a great
result never the less ‘thinking’ that I am.
+1atomicgolf Very cool. Always very cool to hear what Moe said and thought.
Moe mentioned in a video for big draws he pulls the club way inside on
backswing. Any comments on this?
Believe it or not Moe pulled the club way inside on ‘every’ shot….his
right elbow scribed an arc around his right ribcage , in actuality his move
was the right elbow going straight back away from the ball line like you
would start a lawnmower, he confused everyone with his saying he extended
the club for hours over a silver dollar on the ground that was way back
from the ball, clearly he didn’t do that in his swing.
The video of Moe doing a clinic where there was some videoing done from
directly above him shows graphically his moving of the right elbow straight
rearwards as he started back in the back swing., those big hooks he did at
clinics were just deliberate severe aiming right and over rotating the club
face whilst hitting very deliberately out to the right of the target line,
no more different than any competent player trying to hit a big deliberate
roping hook, its all just path and club face that dictates ball direction
+1atomicgolf Cool info, also about his hooks!
I believe his right elbow went like you say however this was an effect of
his takeaway and not a deliberate movement. His setup enabled his takeway
to be very much straight back away from the ball however, in my oppinion. =)