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I think this is a fun project and A+ for effort but I really think you
should make it clear this is your interpretation about Moes swing. From the
headline it sounds like you’re some kind of expert about his swing. Nothing
wrong with experimenting and talking about the swing, just think you should
put some more effort into explaining this is your oppinions about his swing
and that you’re not actually doing his swing, which you are not. You’re
ofcourse doing a hybrid version of his swing. To swing like him for example
you need ofcourse to set up exactly like him. But fun stuff this apart from
this detail, fun stuff keep going =)
+maxxsee If you have seen some of my other videos you will see I ‘always’
make the distinction of everything I do is personal ‘explanation’ and
opinion of the swings or mechanics… not a definitive absolute descriptive
understanding of any mechanics or swing processes.
I have never met ‘anyone’ who knows precisely what any great player
‘actually’ did in his swing process…
if i might add to your comment .. ”To Swing like him for example you need
of course to set up exactly like him’… alas that can never happen for any
of us.. because we do not have Moe Normans body components / flexibility
factors/ limb segment lengths or vertical and horizontal centers of gravity
… and more importantly his ‘Timing Barrier’ factor.
I have never seen ‘anyone’ swing ‘as’ Moe Norman did… nor have I seen
anyone swing ‘as’ Ben Hogan did… clearly that is the case because both
those players had absolutely ‘specific’ individual body component makeup
that created their swing types…
As well because I personally spent time with Moe Norman and I am astute
enough to know how difficult it is to try and emulate his swing dynamics I
never advocate trying to swing ‘as’; he did… I just try and give some
insight into the mechanics of his swing as I understand them.. and as Moe
explained them to me.
It is at the end of the day something to look at… and if you can get
something from it great, if you dont or cant you havent lost anything….it
is for me just part of my attitude to researching the Golf Swing from my
perspectives.
JH.
+1atomicgolf Okay cool. I didn’t know you made this clear, perhaps add some
information about this in video description?
I for one do not believe people can not swing like Moe. I try to swing like
Moe going 13 years now (was 18 at the swingchange) and as I said it’s the
puzzle of puzzles to solve but I belive strongly it’s about getting the
angles correct at setup like Moe did it. No one knows these angles at
setup, they speculate. And most ignore his setup altogether and explain it
away as if it has no meaning. It is actually the main part about this swing
in my oppinion.
Like Moe says, “if you don’t have the correct setup forget it”. It
especially applies to Moes setup when doing his move I believe.
Interesting info at 4:00 !! It’s great to hear inside info like this since
I never met the guy unfortunately
+maxxsee I believe that some of the stuff Moe told me he may never have
mentioned to anyone else because no one may have asked him the specific
questions I did with the intrinsic points of reference that I did, we will
never know that of course…. but its kind of cool to think there is some
possibility those little tit bits I mentioned could have been only extolled
to me.
I guess the only thing that supports that is the lack of other reference to
the descriptive’s by anyone else to date that I have seen or
heard….anyway its info that if you apply it correctly does make a big
difference to your ball striking… even in conventional swing mechanics.
+1atomicgolf Awesome you asked these questions. I heard he only answers
questions he deemed worthy an answer. Judging from the answers you got
seems like you did a pretty decent job. 😉
Very important for the future of golf, these tidbits of information might
be important parts of the puzzle. Almost like finding ancient relics that
change the way we understand the world.
Very nice done
+secretbelowthegrass Thanks for that. JH
These are very informative videos, to look at Moe’s swing on people with
different physical build than Mo, or Graves, etc.
Would appreciate any thoughts or video’s on Moe’s short game, however,
which seems missing from most places. With wedge in hand, or in greenside
bunker, did Moe still keep the shaft parallel to right arm? I tried that
in bunker and it simply did not work, for example… And how did Moe putt?
Never seen videos of that sort of thing.
+drjlo1 I will do a video next week explaining what Moe told and showed me
about his short game process, he didnt have the extreme single axis
geometry in his arms that he had with the full swing, his putting was
fairly conventional in its mechanics but had the same quick ignition move
that his Golf swing had.
JH.
+1atomicgolf Please do show us the short game process as people
underestimate its value.
Hi jh. Great videos as I have said before. Maybe you need to write a book
on moe’s technique and on the things he talked about with you. I would buy
it. Cheers.
He must of been great. Can you describe just quickly how good he was. How
his ball flight was etc. cheers
+Lea Pustetto Hi Lee,
Sorry for the delay in replying..I missed you comment some how.
How good was ‘Moe’…when I first met him he was 64 so I saw him at a time
that he must have lost some of his striking capabilities you would think,
he still at that age was the best striker of a golf ball that I had ever
seen and I saw Jack/Sevy/Greg Norman/Tom Watson/Faldo at their best and
they simply were not in Moe’s class relative to the level of consistency of
ball flight and strike he had .
I had heard all what I thought was myth and exaggeration of Moe’s ball
striking and I was prepared for a letdown especially when I saw him in the
flesh and he wasn’t exactly what you would call a highly tuned physically
looking athlete.
What followed that day will live with me forever because I was so shocked
to see a ‘human’ hit a golf ball like a ‘machine’…I was really stunned
that any person could make a bio mechanical move with the replication Moe
did time after time…like for 1 hour with every club.
My mind went into overdrive contemplating what he must have been like at
his peak of physicality and in his playing prime…I believe Moe was the
greatest ball striker in the history of Golf by a wide wide margin…
someone who knew him really well and myself had a conversation about his
playing stats etc and the guy said he thought Moe’s greens in regulation
career average would have been around 16+ per round.
Ken Venturi said he thought Hogans career average would have been around 14
… the best ever on the PGA tour I think is 13.45..and that was only for 1
year, so Moe’s GIR is off the scale compared to anyone else, to have “1”
penalty shot for an errant shot in 7 years of Tour playing beggars belief.
My honest opinion of Moe’s potential is that he could have been the
greatest player of all time if someone had taken him under their wing and
molded his personality to the requirements of World Tournament golf at the
time he played, if he could have had a mechanism psychologically that would
have protected him from distraction and what he thought was criticism I
believe he potentially could have won every tournament he wanted to, he
simply was that superior in his golf ball control to everyone else..
Moe Norman today would have been a phenomenon … his consistency of ball
striking would have mesmerized world golf galleries … its a tragedy the
world of golf never got to see what could have been the record book of
tournament golf …he was that good.
regards JH
That was a great reply, J.H. and thank you very much for answering my
email and giving me a little bit of an insight into this truly amazing
individual, Moe Norman. Some of those stats are amazing. I just had a week
of golf in queensland with 11 buddies. i have never driven the ball so
straight and so far. I keep looking at the videos and i keep learning
little things but it would be great to have someone who knows moe look at
my swing in person. thanks again for the reply J.H. i really do appreciate
it.
I like the last shot from behind; thats where the camera should be 90% of
the time. I can tell you really took things out of the swing-just like Moe
did. My instructor lived with Moe for 5 years then taught me. I had a
stroke last year and have fully recovered now and i still play great thanks
to Moe and Mr. Hogan as examples. What is your name sir?
+Tim Flaherty Hi Tim,
Glad to hear you have recovered from the Stroke and that you can still play
good Golf..if your instructor ‘lived’ with Moe for 5 years he would have
been exposed to some amazing insight into the Golf Swing and as well how
Moe perceived the neural side of the game’s application .
As I have said many times the Golfing World truly missed being exposed to
the greatest exponent of golf ball striking excellence in the history of
the game, if again as I have said many times before Moe had had someone or
a company promote him to the World of Golf and nurtured him to playing at a
regular World Tournament level it could well have been his name that would
have been at the top the records for most Major tournaments ever won.
Jack and Tiger have achieved incredible results in their careers but
frankly they could never match the incredible consistency of swing
repeatable mechanics that Moe had for 50 straight years..he never ever lost
his swing mechanics perfection at anytime in his lifetime after the age of
19, Jack and Tiger certainly cant boast that.
I know people will say Moe cannot be considered in the same realm as Tiger
and Jack because he didn’t compere at their World level of competitive
play, and he didn’t.. but that was only because he chose not to, not
because he couldn’t have competed at that level.
regards cJH
PS. My Name is John Hensby
Hi John, Yes, my mentor won on the PGA Tour-The Bridgestone in Japan and
shot the course record too back in the 70’s. I can remember him grabbing my
arms at the top and saying, “That is Moe”…that’s where I put it every
time now after 2 years of practice. I’m easily the straighiest guy in my 4
some and beat guys putting it 40 yards past me. It’s still a target game.
This is the best swing for the average guy to learn. While nobody is Moe,
it’s nice to get approximate results. I have not lost a ball in 2 years
swinging like Moe. Appreciate your comments and video.
+Tim Flaherty Impressive and good to hear. As a long time (10 yrs+) natural
golfer, am curious about who your mentor is/was and how moe’s swing fitted
in with his golf, during and after the pro tours?.
Hi JH….you are a legend m8 and thanks for all the great videos.
Particularly these 4 gems on Moe insights. I appreciate your advice even
more on the Moe swing when i see how many more other swing types you have
developed and studied.
I’m a beginner golfer and trying to pull together a single plane (‘moeish’)
swing right from the start. With irons i’m having good success, pure
straight strikes with soft hands. But with the driver only 2 of every 10
shots go somewhat straight. This is confusing in itself because u deem the
driver as the best club to get the Moe move feeling with. Anyway, I have 3
questions I would really appreciate your advice on.
1. Should I use my 10.5 degree loft regular flex driver or my 9 degree loft
stiff flex driver. From what I’m aware, Moe advocated a stiffer and heavier
driver. I certainly get more distance from the 9 degree and practically no
slices. But I do get a lot of left to left low pull shots and hooks. On the
other hand with the regular flex 10.5 degree I slice viciously almost every
time I try to ‘pitch elbow’ and put some load on it!?
2. I have been trying to absorb the Todd graves and Kirk Junge information
as they are also Moe based and in my opinion, for what that is worth given
my experience to date, they conflict with your messages somewhat especially
in the areas of body rotation. You are saying it is a slice across, then a
hit firing the trail arm, then a consequential rotation/natural release.
They are endorsing almost a lower body across the plane roll lateral
rotation and this is where the power comes, with less emphasis on a
straight slide or the right hand firing at the strike. There methods are
messing my thought process up. I believe your method is the best to follow
and they are what gave me my straight iron shot base in the first place,
which I will try now to apply to driving again. Do you believe I’m right to
think there versions of the Moe swings are too much away and off from the
original when compared to yours?
3. I saw your video on release then club head, thanks for teaching me how
to do that properly by the way as I’m sure it will make a big difference to
my swing. But is that release process the same when applied to your
conventional golf swing and your Moe version swing? It wonder that with so
much more lateral and sliding, no rotation, in the Moe version swing that
this might have to be compensated for in the Moe swing….i.e is there a
different release required for the Moe swing than in your ‘Release the club
head’ video….if so could you give some advice on how it would work. Or
maybe I’m just over thinking things and creating problems that are not
there.
Thanks again,
Martin
Ireland
Up Shane Lowry for the PGA!
+murtbuggy1 Hi Martin,
Wow, there is an awful lot of thought processes going on with your
application mechanics , way to many in fact.
You just need to work on setting up precisely the same every time with your
hands in the same position at address relative to where they are positioned
in relation to your body center line, that is you should just feel your
hands are directly centered right in front of you and you only move the
ball position back or forward as the club length changes.
The reason for this is that any changes of hand positioning will effect the
alignment angle of your shoulders which will have an enormous effect on the
delivery line of your club head at impact, which I think could be the
reason you are having difficulty with your driver, as the ball position is
moved forward you may be moving your hands forward to accommodate the ball
position which will open your shoulder girdle and cause you to get the
right shoulder moving ‘out’ coming into the ball as apposed to keeping it
‘back/closed’ ‘ at impact.
It is virtually impossible to slide your lower body laterally if your
shoulders are not closed coming into impact, just hit a few shots with an 8
iron and your right foot pulled back a foot or so at address and keep it
there at impact and keep your left knee bent at impact, you will ‘feel’ the
shutdown hips/shoulders effect that you need to have on every shot .
Any slices or pulls that you hit are never from a closed shoulder girdle at
impact, they are always a result of the club head coming ‘across’ the
target line, a straight pull left and a big slice are the same club head
direction problem, both are the club head moving in the same direction but
the pull has a ‘closed; club face and the ‘slice’ has an ‘open’ club face .
The type of shaft you should use is relative to your swing speed, swings
over say 98 mph should be firm to stiff, under that speed should be regular
flex, loft is again relative to swing speed , unless you have a swing speed
of over 110mph your should be using no less than 9.5 degs loft, you may
have seen me hitting low lofts of 7.5 and under on occasions with x flex
shafts but I only do that in practice to keep my concentration on centered
hits , my play driver is just a normal soft stiff flex, sometimes even a
regular/firm flex because at my age I only swing at 95/100mph most times.
Watch some youtube videos of Moe and look closely at how he keeps his hands
in exactly the same place at all times when he addresses the ball, it was I
think one of his major facets of his swing repeat-ability.
regards JH
+1atomicgolf What can I say JH….you were spot on buddy!! The further ball
position was messing with my head and therefore my hands were way too far
out in front instead of being in line with my body center. Have been
working on not letting my hands escape from the body in the swing, from
address to impact, and keeping the hips and shoulders closed at impact with
my driver.
I guess I never noticed it as much with my irons because you can get away
with the hands in front more at impact.
But the result is my driver shots are straightening up rapidly!! I see it
from the ball flights and I hear a way better late ‘swoosh’ and release as
this technique improves….and the distance is crazy. Anyone who says this
is not a complete swing is crazy.
I think it is interesting that to counteract the hands going forward too
much my body actually told me that I needed to keep the hands and club back
further/longer from the start of the downswing. Then i remembered that
pushing/keeping the club back in the downswing is pretty much a principle
you validate in your Reverse Rotation Swing, this really helps.
Anyway, my swing thoughts are down to 3 with the driver. That with keeping
my eye on the ball at impact has made a massive difference. Thanks very
much JH.
No wonder you Australians are the best drivers, past and present.
Regards,
P.S. Hope you don’t mind if i get in touch again as the swing progresses.
+1atomicgolf Alright JH, how’s she cutting?Said I would update you and
things are going well, very well indeed.I think something else I was doing
wrong was not being conscious enough of the trail foot position in terms of
its connection with the ‘dirt’ as it really helps me to initiate
and automate the slide. Now that I know how and why to hit the Moe shot
correctly, I’m starting to focus my mind on areas like consistency of swing
speed and how to tailor my first proper set of clubs to suit my swing. I
would it say it was only last week when I realised I finally had it down,
to the first basic level stage of competency I mean, and the feeling was
amazing, kind of soul satisfying. I’m so buzzed up with it all that I’m
determined now to start working on my athleticism again and play golf
for life. I’m 35 and started golfing last May. Anyway, where I’m from
there is literally nobody who will teach you this swing, no one. In fact I
would imagine most club pros would laugh you off and probably never even
heard of Moe. Those that do know of the swing, whether pro or amateur,
adopt a very defensive approach to it all because it credibly
challenges the conventional golf they were thought in my opinion. Id
be defensive too if I had started on the conventional route myself. But I’m
so glad I didn’t and I picked this one instead. Anyway, as I was saying
with no teachers most of the stuff I have picked up is from youtube and in
that respect your videos which I have watched countless times over and over
and over again were invaluable. Not only that but you also took time out of
your day to answer some of my questions. I really appreciate that and
thanks very much, you are a good egg. Hope your golf is going well over
there in the cow paddock and all the best. Martin
you took a divot with the driver on the last one and called it a perfect
shot. Confused.
+Jaime Cevallos You are seeing something I cant see, there are with all
these videos frame bleed because the videos are compressed for uploading, I
can see the aberration that looks like the club is bleeding into the ground
before impact, I can assure you that didn’t happen, the guy that scored the
shot is a very high profile teacher and if he calls it an 11 out of 10 you
can bet it was.
+Jaime Cevallos As JH states in the video, the tee is still in the ground
after the shot, unmoved. Dont think you could possibly take a divot and
have that,
Do you grip the club the same way as mo ? I have todd graves video showing
me mo.s grip is yours the same
stewart
+stewart grieve Hi Stewart,
I dont grip the club as Moe did after he joined the Natural Golf guys in
1990, I grip it as he gripped when he was playing, which is the std Vardon
type grip, the split grip frankly was more of a Natural Golf/Jack Kuykendal
promotional tool for the Natural Golf method, Moe told me he used that grip
not because it was better but because Natural Golf paid him to use it.
Moe could use any grip and hit the ball great, the single axis address
process was his secret, not the split grip, he won all his tournaments with
the Vardon grip.
cheers Jh
Where do you put the ball placement do you move it about or just play the
driver off the inside left foot and the irons five inches in approx
thanks
stewart
+stewart grieve Hi Stewart,
If you look back at my stuff you will not find anything that pertains to
ball position as such, I believe you must experiment with ball position to
find out what suits ‘your’ swing mechanics/dynamics etc.
I have always just moved the ball position forward or back with students to
arrive at a position that gives them the correct type of ball
flight/direction that they need.
We all are built differently relative to shoulder widths
flexibility/rotational capabilities etc so we are never going to move or or
rotate the same, hence the ball position must accommodate the individual
aspects of that difference.
The general rule for me is to just move the ball back oi forward until you
achieve good contact and direction, for myself because I like to arrive at
impact with closed shoulders I invariably play the ball further back with
my irons than most, with the driver I play the ball up a ways because again
I have my shoulders closed at impact and because I am around 7 degs in to
out with my attack path I rotate the club ace pretty hard to achieve the
little high ‘push/draw that I like to hit.
If I want to power fade the the ball I just aim left somewhat and and play
the ball further back in my stance, I still rotate as hard with the
clubhead but because the ball is further back the face hasn’t had the time
to close on its inside to out path and the result is the push power fade.
As a guide … just experiment with ball position until you get the ball
flight you want.
cheers JH.
im also hitting them dead straight but im hitting them a bit thin
sometimes,i take it i must be lifting up coming into impact????
+stewart grieve Hi Stewart ,
Could be as simple as your ball position being to far forward at address,
or your shoulders opening to early coming into impact, , with the Moe
method you have to slide the hips a lot but keep your head/shoulders back
and closed while doing that , and don’t forget top rotate the club face
through impact, the club face still has to go to the inside after impact,
don’t hold it ‘down’ the line, that’s a mistake a lot of people make when
trying the Moe swing, he rotated the club head through impact just like
every good ball striker, he just pulled it back to in front of him ‘after’
impact, which makes it look like he keep the club going down the line
through after impact, he didn’t do that.
cheers JH
How can you have power when you don’t turn your shoulder fully?
+Hubert Macachor Hi Hubert,
Personally I develop reasonable power with a short swing and a 70 odd
degree shoulder turn because I develop a lot or torque and reflex action
against the shaft ‘ early’ in the down swing, if you look at any of my
swings you will not see virtually any angle retention of the wrists when
they are at hip height and after coming down and almost the look of
‘throwaway’ coming into impact, but you will see some good angle right at
the ‘start’ of my downswing.
Because I try to get the club head travelling on its biggest arc coming
down I dont try to hold my wrist angle and ‘narrow’ the down swing arc….I
do the exact opposite, I try to release the back swing wrist angle as soon
as I can on the down swing, the same as Count Yogi does, you can get good
power with a less than 90 deg shoulder turn but you must have significant
support stability in your legs against the shoulder turn at the top of the
swing.
cheers JH
Good shoulder turn creates the arc. The longer the arc the more time you
can creater momentum and that’s physics. You can not argue correct physics
principle. You can ask any physics professor about the length of the swing
arc as related to momentum.
Great demonstration of Moe Norman’s swing mechanics. Thanks JH, very
helpful in improving my single plane swing
+CakeCraft20 Hi CakeCraft,
Glad that video was of some help, as with all my swing stuff its only ‘my’
take on a particular swing process or mechanics, with Moe I do have the
advantage of having been exposed to the great mans swing up close and
personal and discussed its nuances with him, all I try to do with any
explanation of Moe’s mechanics is to lift the veil of difficulty which so
often is portrayed in some explanations of his swing mechanics, keep going
with the ‘ Single Plane’ direction, its the way to go.
cheers Jh
I would like to see a more front view camera setup (perpendicular) to the
ball. I have no idea how u are setup, looks are deceiving. A good video is
worth a thousand words.
+Gertrude Martins Hi Gertrude,
Setup is a very individual thing, my personal setup positions for most
people would not be relative unless they had the same body component
lengths and body balance mass distribution etc.
Generally speaking I try to get players to setup at address with no
particular pressures on specific parts of their bodies , that is just
standing with the arms body centered and the weight distributed in such a
way that a person would not easily be able to push me out of my address
position either backwards/forwards etc.
Ball position is just a product of how the ball goes direction wise , I
just position it where it produces a straight direction ball flight, that
is because we all move a bit differently to and through the ball at impact .
The general rule is just work on setting your body at address in a position
that allows you to swing to the top of the backswing and finish of the
through swing without any undue compensations of your balance , the best
feeling to get is that of your weight being equally distributed vertically
down like that of a Pyramid type construction, the base needs to be solid
and distributed with the most emphasis of the mass distribution.
cheers JH